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Amanda: Okay. Today is Wednesday, December 8th, 2021. My name is Amanda Riggenbach and I am the manager for the Tumultuous 2020 Oral History Project at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum. I'm currently at Butler Funeral Homes in Springfield, Illinois with Chris Butler, the president of Butler Funeral Homes and Cremation Tribute Center. This is our second session and we're going to continue talking about his experiences throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. Thank you, Chris, for being here with me.
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Chris: Thank you, for the opportunity to be with you.
Amanda: We left off last time getting into that summer of 2020. And in May, that's when Illinois moved into Phase Two and started to feel like the world was going back to a semblance of normalcy. Restaurants were open for indoor outdoor seating. And we kind of discussed beforehand, things really started to feel a little bit more normal on some level. What did you think about that at that time?
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Chris: Yeah, it's interesting to think back to that period. You almost compare it to what, when the original announcement of lockdowns or shutdowns, whatever you prefer to call them, were, I think we all had in our mind, “Well, this will be a couple of weeks. We're just trying to get through a short period. Things will get back to normal fairly quickly.” And then, you know, as we go through March, April, and May, people are starting to say,
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“Well, when are we going to get back to normal?” In our area, what I recall was is that we didn't have quite the experience that other areas had, you know, compared to New York City and things like that, where there was just a lot of - number of deaths and so forth. Now, I always preface that comment to say that
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any family that experienced the death of their loved one, the pandemic was - it was real. And so, to anybody who - you know, we're not discounting that, but in our area, the experience was not as acute -- I guess is a good way to say it -- as what others may have experienced. As we moved into the summer, it looked like, hey, you know what? We're moving in a positive direction. The world's moving in a positive direction.
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So, I think we all started to get anxious and we all had that hope of, hey, things are going to get back to normal. And I think it was around the end of May of 2020 that we started to move into the different phases where things were opening up. And I do remember going with my family to a restaurant where we were able to have dinner. We were on a parking lot under a tent. And I just remember saying, I was like, “Well I never knew I'd be so excited to eat outside at one of my favorite restaurants.”
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But it was neat, you know. You kind of understood what you had taken for granted, maybe in the past. And even though we weren't indoors, we were at a restaurant that we liked, and we were seeing other people that we would, you know, customarily see, and so forth. So, you had that sense of optimism as we started to move into that summer of 2020. And from the experience of assessing families through that period,
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you know, it was also a sense that, hey, you know, we did certain things prior to this time to help people still experience the support and so forth that they wanted to. We had to do it in a very controlled manner and it wasn't as open, and for some families that was a harder situation. But for the most part, that affected ceremonies in the essence of you could have people come to the funeral home for visitation, but it was very
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small numbers and you let so many people in the building at a time and family couldn't be as large gathering as in the past, but it worked. But ceremoniously, you had to limit the number to, I think it was 10. And so the streaming service offered people an option to attend ceremonies, even though they weren't there physically. It allowed families to prepare the ceremony and to prepare remarks for eulogies and so forth.
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So, there was a lot of that therapeutic value of events that still could occur thanks to technology. But still, I remember sitting and listening to a friend give the eulogy for his wife and thinking, “Wow, I'm glad I could view that through technology.” And I'm glad others could too. But, boy, it sure would have been nice if those people could have been there
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to be there in that physical sense of support. But so, as we moved to somewhat larger numbers for ceremonies -- and the churches were able to open up a little bit more because of the vast space and so forth -- that was a - you know, you had that sense of optimism. So, it was a good -- maybe a good period isn't the right term to use -- but it was - felt that sense of we're moving in the right direction.
Amanda: I know you mentioned that you have two daughters who are eight and ten.
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They are eight and ten now, yeah. Was that difficult for them, kind of having a weird school year and then going into summer? Were they excited about maybe having a normal summer?
Chris: Well, yeah, it was, when you think about it from the children's perspective - and we all had that question in our mind, you know, how is this going to affect the kids? And certainly, it does. And probably we won't know the long-term effect of that for a long time. I thought
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the school response where they attended, and other schools too, everybody did the best they could. They had to look at it from their own perspective. So, you look at a large school district like our local district, 186, and they had certain things they had to consider. Then we had other schools that had things that they needed to consider. And our school, I thought, did a great job. They were remote during that period. They concluded the school year, again, the best we could.
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And as the summer approached, it was a sense of, we don't have our regular sports going on. They did some, they did practicing and things like that, again, according to whatever the guidelines were. That allowed for some socialization. I do remember the 4th of July. It was interesting because of the neighborhood, in our normal busy lives, everybody in the neighborhood - you might see people playing here or there a little bit under the normal course of events.
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But that summer, you saw people out every day, walking in the neighborhood at the end of the day. You just saw people a lot more. And then the 4th of July came. There were a lot of fireworks going off in the neighborhood and firework shows and people were gathering outdoors, you
know, and stuff like that. So you did have some sense of - well, you had that sense of community and sense of socialization and things.
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Again, I think the sense was that, hey, we're not to normal yet, but we're still moving in the right direction. Summer’s summer and you could still do things like swimming and things like that.
Amanda: One of my questions was going to be, if here at Butler - if you guys were able to open to larger events, but you answered that earlier.
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Did you guys do anything outdoors? Was that even an option for you guys?
Chris: No, it was certainly an option. I mean, it's always an option to have outdoor events. Through our history, we've had some at special places. You know you can think golf courses, a place called Crazy Farm in our area, Lincoln Memorial Gardens. It's a place where ceremonies have taken place. I don't think that we did anything
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out of the ordinary, number-wise, except to say that in some instances ceremonies were held at the cemetery. So, they may have had visitation at the church or funeral home and then maybe had a ceremony out at the cemetery where people could assemble in a larger group. Although the numbers were -- for a period at least --I don't remember the timeline specifically,
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we were also restricted at the cemetery for a while. I think, until the sense of, hey, outdoors is a little bit better option maybe for people to consider. Again, we were comparing it somewhat to the churches which were able to host larger ceremonial events during that period. So, it was about kind of the norm, really, in our area.
Amanda: One of my interviewees actually was a epidemiologist and what he was telling me about
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was, that’s just the way that the waves work. And that, you know, that summer of 2020 there was definitely that lull. But from his perspective, there was concern because cold season’s coming up, the second wave seemed to be coming. So, in that fall and winter of 2020, did you have any
concern perhaps that maybe things would start to become more restrictive again? Or was that not really something that you were worried about at that time?
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Chris: You know, it's hard to recall specifically what I was thinking. But again, I think from a general community perspective, because we had not seen the larger number of cases like other areas had done, and a larger number of deaths. Now, again, any death is significant, but we didn't have the larger number.
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So I think that there was somewhat of that perspective of, oh, we'll be fine. Maybe we even had that perspective. Again, from a community perspective of, well, it didn't come here like it did other areas, so we overdid it a little bit, that type of perspective. But I can't say that I had a large expectation that we were going to get into a more restrictive
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environment. Although, part of a local group where one of the members is involved with one of the local healthcare institutions, he gave a wonderful presentation to our small group on, “This is what we know from 1918.” And he said this is what we expect to happen. They kind of nailed it, really. The presentation was very interesting because it gave - he said, “Well here's what we did in 1918, here's what we did in 2020.” It was almost the
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exact response. You know, you saw outdoor events, you saw masks, all that kind of stuff. And it's like, wow, you know. And when he said that, it certainly raised a level of concern. Then I think as we got closer to Halloween you started hearing people - and I don't remember where the numbers were trending at that time, you know, in August, September, and things but there was certainly that concern that, hey, we think we're going
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the wrong way. And then there was the expression that, hey, if things don't go the right direction here, we really need everybody to pitch in. That we could start to see restrictions again – or stronger restrictions. I think I forgot -- maybe I spoke about it earlier -- but when you think about how this all affected people and – again, every institution out there
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I think they were just trying to do the best they could. So, early on, when we don't know a lot of things, we're still trying to learn how everything is going to progress. I just remember a call from a lady that had said, “You know, my dad's been…” I believe it was in a nursing home, “…and we haven't been able to see him and he's going to die. And I just need assurance from you and your team that I can see him once he has died.”
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The perception in her mind being that even the funeral homes weren't going to be able to allow some sort of time to see their loved one. I'll never forget that phone call and the impact. I had other friends that their parents – I had one friend that is - both parents were in a nursing home. Both parents had COVID. They were sharing pictures of them saying, “Hello,”
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outside, through the glass. And I just remember how isolating that felt to see that. Now, they had visitors. They were saying, “Hello,” through the glass, so they weren't completely isolated. But yet, they were they were physically isolated in that room. Also, the perception was, they both have COVID, they're both at this age. They're not going to make it. And amazingly, both did. So, that was a good ending story and they're doing well to this day.
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But to answer your question, I think we still felt probably optimistic at that point going into things. I guess, as things developed, we started to understand that it might not be a real good fall season heading into winter as things develop.
Amanda: Were your daughters going in person to school?
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Chris: From a personal perspective, yeah. At our school, the kids returned to in-class instruction in August, just as they normally would. Now, the school year started - normally, you have activities where you come and meet teachers and things like that. Now we still met the teachers. But it was just a very different feel. Not everybody was in the building. You had a very specific time that you could go. You had your mask on and you dropped stuff off and it was different. But they were there. Our concern was, “Well how are
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they going to deal with masks?” Well, you know, the kids, they were fine. I mean, they put the mask on, you'd pick them up at the end of the day and sometimes they'd still have the mask on when you got home. And you're like, “Oh you can take your mask off.” “Oh, yeah, I forgot.” So, kids adapt. They're much probably more adaptable than we are. And they did fine. The school did a great job. You know they kept everybody informed. And I think, overall - and
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this is just what I kind of recall, is that it seemed that there was - I mean, there wasn't as much other illness in the school. You know, the colds and flus were down. But it didn't seem like the kids necessarily would - there were cases where kids had had it, but they weren't spreading it to other kids. It was more, they got it from somebody in their family and – so, they would stay home and do their quarantine thing. But it didn't seem like there were schools
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where there was large outbreaks, at least in the experience that I had. But they did very, very well. It was great. Again, they didn't have - I think the difference was you didn't have the extracurricular stuff going on. You didn't have the sports. Amazingly, our school did have a Christmas program. It was just very different. It wasn't a large number of kids. I think the eighth graders, maybe, did it. And when you attended the event, it wasn't the large event that it was in the past.
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They, maybe, broke it up into nights, and the chairs were apart and all that kind of stuff. But it was A Peanuts Christmas, as I recall. And it was very, very well done. I mean, it was super. And it was, maybe, just needed. We were grateful.
Amanda: And there's really nothing like the Peanuts Christmas.
Chris: Oh, no. I mean, you know, the characters, the Snoopy and Charlie.
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In fact, we went to a basketball game last night, and my daughter pointed out, “Hey, that's Charlie Brown from last year's Christmas.” He's in high school now. So I was like, “Oh, that's Charlie Brown.”
Amanda: It's also nice that they did it for the eighth graders since…
Chris: Since they weren't going to be back. Yeah.
Amanda: Especially…
Chris: Because normally it was all the grades would do something together. I mean, one program for the grades would have their specific role. And they said, ‘Well, the eighth graders aren't going to be here next year.
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We're going to let them do something.”
Amanda: Not to jump out of our kind of this timeline we're building, but are they doing something this year that you know of?
Chris: They are. Now, it's modified. It's not – so, I think they've paired up different grades with each other. And when your slot is your slot, you go. So, it's not – it's even modified - I would say, maybe even a little bit more restrictive than last year, which is interesting.
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But, again, I would say, well, they know. They have all the information to make their decision, and they make their decision on that. We just are there and we look for what our opportunity is to participate. So, I think next week is when my daughter's class is doing something, and we'll look forward to it. Now, my older daughter is in what they call the chorus.
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The right name's escaping me. But they have a program this weekend in conjunction with Memorial Medical Center's – or Memorial Health Center Festival of Trees. That's going to be downtown, outdoors, on the Old State Capitol Plaza. They've been practicing for it and we're looking forward to attending that this week. And downtown last week -- we went downtown last Saturday -- and there was a lot going on downtown.
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It was the parade – or Holiday Lights Parade by the Jaycees took place, and a lot of people there. It was a wonderful night, no wind, and the temperatures were mild. It was just really neat. So, yeah, downtown is really festive. So, yeah, some good things happening.
Amanda: Would they, do you think, have done this thing downtown with the - in front of the old state
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capitol if they weren't concerned about COVID? Is that something maybe that they wouldn't have done normally?
Chris: Well, normally, this particular choir - chorus, they will do something in conjunction with the Festival of Trees at the event. Now, last year they didn't have the event, as I recall. They said, “Well, this year we're going to do the event, but we're going to do it in a way” - I mean, I think as they've even said in their promotion of the events,
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“We're the – we've been on the front lines of this pandemic. We know the importance of our Festival of Trees for the community and for the participants. We want to have it, but we want to do it in a way that we feel aligns with our values of safety and health and things.” And so, they said “We're going to do it. We're going to do it downtown. We're not going to have events that bring a lot” - you know, there might be people, but they're going to be outside and they're not going to be all
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drawn into a closed environment together for long periods and that type of thing. And, you know, it kind of allows people an opportunity to come downtown. And maybe to a degree, see downtown in a way that some of the younger people haven't experienced. I still remember as a kid -- now this was on the tail end of the retail hub being downtown -- but you went downtown and the stores were lit up with different decorations and things like that. So, I was driving
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downtown yesterday and there's an empty building there on the main level that was all decorated for the Festival of Trees. I thought, “Wow, that looks really nice.” So, you know, I think it's just part of a new beginning. Downtown transitioned several times since that retail hub has moved away from there and we're in a transition period again. I remember when I first came back to Springfield after completing college and
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downtown was on the tail end of a - kind of a - you know, it was declining a little bit, but it was right as it was also starting to swing into a new trend for downtown where restaurants and things like that were starting to be developed. I lived downtown and it was a great experience. So, that period has transitioned and we've gone through the last several years a little bit of a
decline in the downtown area. But I think through that, through those challenges -- just like
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everything -- there's always opportunities and people are seeing the opportunities. And Memorial said, you know, “Let's showcase downtown a little bit and get people down here beyond the daytime,” and it's neat. So, yeah, looking good.
Amanda: And a funny tidbit about old buildings, in a small town in the mountains in Switzerland, there's a really nice bar and I was talking to a lady there and she said, “Oh, well, you
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know, this building is, like, 500 years old. And the bar area used to be where they kept the cattle or the cows. And, you know, the upstairs is where the family used to live."
Chris: Isn’t that awesome?
Amanda: And it's just - the interesting way of recycling these places.
Chris: Yeah.
Amanda: And sometimes, you know, we don't really do that quite here.
Chris: No. The only recycling you're starting to see with when they tear down a building now is, “We're going to save the old bricks and reuse them,” or something like that. Which is, well, okay, that's better than what you used to do with them. But still, I mean, think about
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just repurposing the building, right? But again, it's America and, you know, it's economics and you just - you can't argue with some of the results. I mean, you can't, economically. It's overall been a powerhouse. But still.
Amanda: But I wish your daughter the best in her performance.
Chris: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're looking forward to it.
Amanda: I'm sure that'll just - there's something about seeing kids perform
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that just kind of makes you really get into the holiday season.
Chris: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No doubt.
Amanda: Because there's that excitement that – there’s a lot to it.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda: But that's really nice to hear that you were able to enjoy the eighth graders in 2020. And, kind of going back and forth between that personal experience, but also experience being the CEO of this place, did you notice then with the volume of deaths
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that things were starting to get bad again? Or were you kind of - was it kind of twofold? You saw the news and then you saw it in your own experience.
Chris: Yeah. It was interesting. I think – I’ll try to explain this the best way I can. But as we were going through the year in 2020, you know, you go around the community, people know what your role is. And they would say, “Oh, you guys must be very, very busy.” And I, most of the year would say, “I understand what you're saying,
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but it's been kind of a really typical year thus far.” And so, it wasn't exceptionally busy for us in that sense. As we went from September into October -- as I recall, and it might have even started in September -- things started getting busy, but it wasn't because of COVID-related deaths. Now, not that there
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weren't any occurring, there were some. But it was not indicative of what was to come. So, we were just busy. When I say busy, what I mean is that there was a larger number of deaths starting to occur in the community, which does happen. I mean, there are different periods of the year, on any given year, where some months are just busier. So, you're serving more families than you either have the previous months or you traditionally will do in an average month.
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And that happened. And then, November came, and it was around - and we were still busy in the first part of November. It was around the mid-part of November -- as I recall -- that we were busy, but we were also starting to experience an increase in the number of deaths related to COVID. And so, November -- as we were able to later look back -- we realized that October,
November, and December, they were just naturally busy. They were busy regardless of a
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pandemic. On top of that, then you had the deaths related to COVID. So, that made it an exceptionally busy period. Now, again, in comparative to maybe some other parts of the country, we weren't the same percentage of increase that they had seen but it was still a significant percentage increase in those final two months. So, second part of November and all of December was just very, very busy. At that same time, the state entered into a more restrictive period. So,
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the events that we were having were, again -- depending on whether we were at a church and so forth -- they were just not completely - they weren't back to the norm of what we maybe had anticipated. Restricted a little bit more in size, again, unless we were at a church but even there, what you really had was a combination of some people just saying, “I'm not comfortable with attending, so I'm not going.” So, what you might have anticipated to be
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a large visitation under normal situations was not going to be as large. Then, you also had the numbers that you had to adhere to, more on the ceremony side. Not that, you know, if it was a visitation, you could manage it to say, “Well, we can have this many people in the area at this time.” Ceremony, you were restricted with the number of attendance, period. I mean, unless, again, you were at a church where you had more area. So, it was a unique period. And certainly, the
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awareness was that - amongst the team that, you know - as it had been the whole time, we had to be very careful about how we were assisting. And that carefulness was a responsibility to our staff. And it was a responsibility to our community, to the clients we're serving, to the guests that came here. It just was a - and to the community at large. There was a large -
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there was a big responsibility there to manage things appropriately. And I'm proud of the way that our team handled it. We really didn't have any - we didn't have any issues that came out of it. And it was a tough period. I
remember us trying to plan our annual holiday party and community - our annual holiday party and recognition event.
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So, we decided early on, no party this year. We want to try to figure out how we can do our recognition event for our team, and how can we do that? So, we started planning something. We were going to try to do it on the fairgrounds in October. So, let's do something outdoors before the cold weather gets here. So, I guess to your earlier point, we were thinking along those lines. Maybe that was from the information we were getting from the state. But anyhow, due to the
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number of people we expected to attend - it was going to be over 50 people. And we said we're going to do it outdoors and so forth. But as it turned out, you couldn't do anything at the fairgrounds over 50 people, indoor or outdoor. So, we said, “Well, we'll just wait and see how things progress.” And we, I think, essentially, decided we were going to do something in January. We were going to probably go remote and just do our best. And then somehow, miraculously,
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in January, things opened up. Later in the year – so, I think it was a week or two out from when we were going to do the event. Maybe it was a little bit longer than that. But we just said, “You know what, we can do this in person. But we're going to do it in person and remote. It's not going to be a party. You're going to have specific, you know - when you get there, we're not going to have a social hour and all that. You're going to go to your table. But you can sit. We'll have everybody distance.” And we kept within the numbers of whatever we're allowed, which in my mind is 50.
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But we had people who drove by and picked up their meal and took it home and watched the event remotely. And then we had people who attended. And we got it all done. And I remember the remarks from people as they were leaving, “We really needed this.” “Thank you.” You know, that type of thing. It was a fun little event. And it came after a pretty bleak period in the community. I mean, the number of deaths was pretty significant. Just number of deaths anyway,
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and then the deaths related to COVID. So, when you think about the number of deaths anyway, it was that the bleakness came from not being able to do things. To give and receive as much support as you normally would have experienced during that time. Now, people got support. Unless they elected to have something completely private, which is understandable. But a large number of people didn't, but they still didn't have that ability for everybody to come together
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as they would have under normal periods. But I think -- as I've described probably previously in our discussion -- throughout the period I feel people got the essentials of what they needed. They got that ability to say goodbye to their loved one. They got the ability to gather, albeit maybe smaller groups with people, immediate family and so forth. And to just have that transition period from the moment of death
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to the transition to their first days without their loved one to what their new normal is going to be. So they got the essentials through that period. And that was something that I was really proud of from our team perspective. Because we really didn't have anybody on our team who said, “I can't come into work.” Now, obviously if anybody felt like they didn't feel good, they'd say, “Hey, I've got to stay home today.” I'm not talking about that.
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We didn't have a lot of that. But we didn't have anybody who said, “I can't come into work.” They all said, “We're here, and we're going to do what we need to do, and we appreciate the protocols that are in place,” and it was good. So, the essentials were there.
Amanda: And to go back a little bit, what kind of measures did you guys take in terms of your services and in terms of here that you talked about?
Chris: Yeah, so we're sitting here in one of our planning suites,
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and we would have our director would sit in one area of the room, and then the family would sit in the other area of the room. Everybody wore a mask. Now, I can't say 100% that everybody did, but I know our team did. But we weren't able to have large families come. It was typically one or two representatives of the family would come and do the planning meeting.
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Some people might be included in the planning meeting via technology, Zoom, or so forth. Some people like to use their iPhone or whatever. But that was the initial, so there was just less of that. Obviously, well, they're not in the building any longer, but we had the little placards on the floor of spacing. The number of chairs in all the areas were reduced. I can't remember what the machine is called, but it was a thing that would go through -
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you'd just spray it through the facility, and it would somehow - the product just settles and took care of surfaces and things like that, which is something we saw in October of ‘19. And it was a Clorox-type thing. I saw it at a meeting, and I was like, “Wow, that would be really good for us.” I wasn't even thinking. I just said, “I think that would be a good thing for us,” because I was thinking flu season. I have images of my dad when I was young,
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and he'd go through the whole facility and spray Lysol everywhere because he felt that everybody was getting sick through the facility. And that was flu season. So we got it, and it took a long time to get here because when we ordered it, things were just under normal progression, but there was a real demand. By the time we were in the queue to get it, I think a lot of the school systems had ordered them, and so we were not as high on the protocol. Although, I felt we should have been in there somewhere
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because we were a very public facility. But we got it, and that was a help. The big concern that we would have is you don't want any outbreak for guests or family but you also don't want it from your team. If you had a large number of your team out, how do you conduct your business? By that time -- as I think about things, as you think about January of 21-- by that time,
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we were moving into the vaccine period. And of course, I think that was where - not for everybody, but for a good number of people - that there was like, okay, we know this thing's still out there, but maybe we're going to have some measure of protection. It's not going to be ironclad, but at least it might help in the process. So, and that's, again, we had our event in person because the state was opened
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up somehow. After November and December, things kind of dropped off pretty quickly, I think, for that period. Now, we've had waves since, just like
the medical guy that I talked about earlier said we would. It was amazing. I mean, the way he would predict things was just - I was like, “Wow, you're right,” you know. And they would just describe, this is the cycle of how these viruses work, and this is what we expect to see, and they got it pretty good.
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Yeah.
Amanda: It's always impressive to me how they're able to do stuff like that.
Chris: Oh, hey, it's very impressive. You know, my jaw would just drop. It's like, “Wow. All right,” you know? You just watch it, and you hear them talk, and then you see it happen, pretty much on the timeline they gave you.
Amanda: So, when you guys had your holiday party, I'm curious to know what a normal
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holiday event would be like.
Chris: Yeah. We were very clear that it wasn't a party in 2020. So we didn't actually have it in 2020 like we normally would. We would normally have it in November before Thanksgiving. We’d have it right before Thanksgiving because we want to celebrate the season. We do call it a holiday party, and it's - but we want to celebrate Thanksgiving, gratitude for the year. We want to have that recognition, and we also want to celebrate the season of the holidays.
[0:37:45]
So, normally, we're going to be in the area of 100 and some people, and it's very festive. We wanted to be very clear that this was not going to be a big party. We weren't going to - we want to invite you. We want to recognize the achievements and the sacrifices and the work of the past year. And we want to try to do it in a setting that you haven't been able to experience a lot
[0:38:13]
of. So, we have, in our organization, a reception center and a lot of space. I mean, it normally can hold 320 some people and we were going to be in the area of what, 50, I think. So, we set the tables up. And with the exception of - and we worked with a caterer and had a great meal on plates. It wasn't - except for those who picked up, it wasn't disposable stuff.
[0:38:42]
And they did a great job for us. We did our normal program of recognition, which has a little humor in it, and that type of thing. It was just fewer people physically there. We had a good number, again, that watched through technology and we just had a recognition. It was -- as I recall -- it was at the end of January 2021. And now, this year, we had our - we moved back. Again, we didn't have a social hour this year.
[0:39:12]
We had it in our usual time frame. We had the usual program overall, and dinner and all that. It was still spread out and all that, but we had more people this year. So, it worked.
Amanda: How did you determine last year who gets to be in person and who's online?
Chris: We just put it out there to see what kind of - I think we had a fairly good idea who would and would not want to come, and that held true.
[0:39:40]
And we didn't – so, when we saw the numbers, we said, hey, let's do it. Again, I think not that far in advance we were planning for a completely remote event. And then we started to get the word through the state that, hey, it might open up. So, I know at some point we sent out an email and said, “Look, we're not really sure what's going to happen here yet. But, save the date, mark - and we'll let you know as soon as we can the type of event we're going to have.”
[0:40:08]
And as soon as we got word that we could have a larger number -- not the full number, but a larger number there -- we opened it up, and, you know, it was good. It was really good.
Amanda: Was there quite an emotional toll that that season took on your staff here just because of the high volume?
Chris: You know, that's an interesting question. I would say that there's probably no way that it could not have taken an emotional toll.
[0:40:38]
Now, we're blessed to have an adequate number of staff members. So, the one thing I noted at the time was we didn't have overtime going on, you know. Maybe, I mean, there would be a few hours here and there. But it was not the extent of what you might have expected when you have that - I mean, we've never had that many ceremonies in one month,
[0:41:07]
in December, as what we had in December of 2020. It was well ahead of any time thing we'd ever experienced. But the team, there was - out of our - as we look at the management of numbers, there was nobody that was completely overwhelmed with a level of duty for that period. Now, was it a little bit higher than what we'd want on a normal basis?
[0:41:38]
Absolutely. But everybody in funeral service knows that that's a potential. Again, not to that level, but again, I think we were able to spread it out fairly well among the team and not have it take its toll. Now, it's also during the holiday season, so that you're always trying to manage things where people can get time away. And I think we held true to making sure that everybody got at least a couple days away for the holiday, no matter what their role was.
[0:42:07]
Amanda: I don't know if this is crass. So, please, you know, tell me, but what would be a normal number of people that a person would take care of normally, and then what was it in this period of time? Again, if that's not really something that's...
Chris: Well, you know, there's a diagram or a chart that I have on that that we manage from every month. And I don't recall those numbers offhand. I know we managed to kind of a percentage of
[0:42:38]
what we call utilization, to make sure that - we look at everybody's hours and we look at their utilization to make sure that somebody's not getting overwhelmed. I mean, sometimes it can happen just… not because they're scheduled that way, it's just the way that things work out on their schedule if they're working on a weekend or something like that. But, you know, I don't recall the specific numbers, but it is all designed to make sure
[0:43:05]
that nobody has an overabundance of family care on their duty.
Amanda:That makes sense.
Chris: Yeah, I just can't recall the number. So, I'm sorry.
Amanda:No, I just was like, “Is that appropriate to ask?”
Chris: Yeah. No, it's how many families on average are you able to assist. And you've got to think that, not only from the perspective of the funeral director, but
[0:43:37]
also from the family's perspective. I mean, if a funeral director is assisting too many families at one time, what level of care are they going to be able to provide attention-wise to the individual family? I mean, it's a broad perspective of what you've got to look at to make sure that you're addressing things across the board from a family perspective, organization perspective, and individual director perspective.
Amanda: It sounds like there's a lot that goes into all of these decisions.
[0:44:10]
Is there a bit of it delegated, or does it a lot of times fall on you, especially during this time?
Chris: No, it doesn't fall on me. The part that would fall on me primarily is going to be helping the organization know what the numbers are to be adequately staffed. That's where you project and you look and say, all right, well, if we anticipate
[0:44:38]
this is the number of families we're going to serve in the course of a year, how many funeral directors do we need on the team? And all that. And you've got to take a lot of things into account in that, and to make sure that you've got – you can't just staff to meet your bare minimum. You've got to staff to say, all right, where's the shock absorber, so to speak, in this equation so that in the event of an illness or somebody retires or resigns, whatever it may be, you've
[0:45:08]
got to be able to have some capacity there. Our operating philosophy has always been to be overstaffed. Not largely, I mean, you've got to look at the big picture. But you've still got to be ready to assist. That's where my biggest role is going to be. And then I'll assist, obviously, in the review every month to look at it. So, that's a kind of an operations-team perspective of we're going to look at that
[0:45:38]
and make sure that, hey, what are our hours looking like? What's the utilization -- that I spoke of earlier -- like? How are we doing? And then you tweak and manage from there. The day-to-day is going to fall to our operations team and directors. We have a scheduler on staff, and they look at that kind of thing as well. So, there's people looking at it. Yeah.
Amanda: Absolutely.
[0:46:03]
And kind of moving forward, again, in this timeline before we go into that January into 2021, were there any particular moments that stand out from that past winter of 2020? I guess going into 2021, of course.
Chris: No, you know, my recollection of it is that it was...
[0:46:36]
It was just… it had that bleakness to it, you know. I have some very fond memories of 2020, but I also have that - trying to think of the right word. The word is in my mind, but I'm not thinking of it. But it's that feeling that you have. Ominous is not the right word. But, you know, you just drove through town at different parts of the year and
[0:47:10]
you kind of have that sense of grief for what was not taking place and that would have and should have been taking place. And I say should have, not saying that, “Oh, people were making wrong decisions by not allowing us to do this.” Things weren't taking place for viable reasons. When I say, “Should have been taking place,” meaning that under normal conditions, this would be going on. That was pretty stark on Memorial Day when I drove through town. And there was just - I mean, there wasn't...
[0:47:42]
the Memorial Day events weren't going on. There might have been, you know, kind of a reduced version of it. But at that period -- as I recall -- most of the things were still closed. You know, and I remember driving downtown at different periods -- and I think I referenced this earlier -- you really rather - you expected to see a tumbleweed more than a person. You know, that was - you're always going to have that sense of a little bit of that's what 2020 was like.
[0:48:12]
But you also saw the resiliency of people. Boy, one thing I remember is, I was going to the grocery store over in the Montvale Plaza -- so that would have been a Schnucks -- and there's a little restaurant there, a Mexican restaurant.
Amanda: Oh, is it Azteca?
Chris: Azteca. And I took a picture of it, and I sent it to my family - texted it to my family immediately because they had this grand holiday display.
Amanda: Your microphone fell off. I'm so sorry.
[0:48:42]
What luck we're having with it today.
Chris: Sorry about that. I probably knocked the microphone off as I was hand gesturing there, but.
Amanda: It's a good quality.
Chris: But it was - this is a very positive memory is, I thought, you know, they had this grand Christmas display. I think the words, something along the lines of, “We're celebrating you!” was on the door and all these lights. And all I could think of -- and if I'm thinking right --
[0:49:11]
December, they would have been again back into carry-out only maybe. But I thought, “Man, all they've been through, and look at their optimism as individuals and as a business in the community.” And they were thanking their customers. They were putting out this display of hope. And I took a picture. And I sent it to my family. It was just a recollection of...
[0:49:42]
Boy, if that's not something to emulate, you know, what isn’t? Because it was really neat. They're a neat, successful, hard-working group of people. They made it through a very, very tough year. And they were full of optimism, you know? So, I guess that's what you take out of a year like that. It's like, you know, we can get through a lot of stuff as human beings. It was...
[0:50:10]
I guess that's probably the takeaway from that period, really. And just the families that we served here, you know, being around them. Boy, there was one family that I can think of that had a number of deaths in that one-year period. And not COVID related, they just had some deaths. And I saw a lot of them in that year. And, you know, they're a resilient bunch.
[0:50:43]
The gratefulness that we saw from people of what they were able to do was really inspiring, heartwarming, rewarding, that emotional compensation that we get in this job, at any time. But that was neat.
Amanda: And you know I think I've seen that Azteca. Actually, you could purchase a meal from them on top of your own meal that they would donate to the hungry.
[0:51:12]
Chris: Yeah.
Amanda: I mean, what a cool place of business.
Chris: That is neat. And you saw that from a number of restaurants who were doing stuff like that. And you're like, “Wow.” You know? I hate to single out any restaurants because there were so many good efforts but I remember Mark from Cafe Moxo saying something along the lines as, “Yeah, this was tough period, but there are others who have it
[0:51:43]
worse and so we're going to do what we can.” And they were doing a lot of neat - you know, they would partner with other businesses and businesses would help them and they’d do these meal things. Saw that in a lot of areas and from a lot of people. And it's like, “Wow.” You know? There's some neat things that go on in the world.
Amanda: I remember in our first session we discussed that community that's in Springfield and kind of what's kept you here all these years. And it's cool to see that play out even in a tumultuous year that 2020 was.
[0:52:16]
Chris: Tumultuous year for sure, 2021 has its own version of tumultuousness. I'm having a hard time with the word, sorry about that. But, yeah, it's – well, it's the way of the world. We advance and move forward and sometimes we move backwards, I guess, and just work through whatever the period brings us.
[0:52:48]
Amanda: Absolutely. As you mentioned, January is kind of when the vaccine started to become available to frontline essential workers, and Illinoisans 65 and up. Were you guys included in the essential workers?
Chris: We were. Yeah. And I remember thinking, “All right.” You know, so, I looked at the role of our team and I said, “All right, the funeral director is definitely frontline.” And I said, but what about
[0:53:18]
me, personally? Do I fit into that? Because I'm not necessarily every day here meeting with families. But, as I thought about it, I was like, “Well, you know, there are a number of…” I mean, I visit with a lot of families, every day. I remember. My experience in 2020 was that when somebody knows you and they see you and you're in that setting of ‘goodbye’, those hugs and stuff are very natural.
[0:53:46]
So I'm there a lot. “So, yeah, maybe I should get in line. But I don't want to take the place of a healthcare worker.” There was a lot of sense of that. So, we didn't schedule immediately, but we did schedule pretty quickly. Because what we were hearing from the local healthcare community is, “We've got plenty, please get down here if you're in that group. Because we want to get people vaccinated.” Again, we didn't make it mandatory and all that.
[0:54:17]
We don't want to get into that discussion in our purpose today. But for those that wanted to, they got scheduled and they went on -- I think it was the health department at the time. And they had a really nice setup for those who wanted it, and a good number did. We were in that group and grateful to have been.
Amanda: At this point, was your wife still working here at Butler?
[0:54:45]
Chris: She was. Yeah.
Amanda: Okay. So she would have been included as well.
Chris: She would have been included, but she was not. You know, you tried to - again, what we put out in our group was saying, “Hey, if you are in the front line of things, then get scheduled. Then, we'll wait and see how things are developing.” It wasn't long after that initial period where those who maybe weren't in the strict
[0:55:14]
sense of the front line - what part of our thinking was, “All right, your role may not be frontline, but if you're sitting with those…” We had spread
people out, but still, you are interacting. I mean, you're in the business. And so we thought, “Well, if they're going to be near other frontline people, we need to do our best to offer it.” Again, not mandate it, but offer it.
[0:55:44]
And we clarified with the local officials. You know, “Who are you including here?” And they said, “Get them scheduled if they want.” So, again, I think a large number did.
Amanda: Did it provide you with any type of relief to get the vaccine? Or was it more of just like, this is a step in the right direction? Or what was that like for you?
Chris: Yeah. That's an interesting question. I don't know that I've ever reflected on that. I would say it was probably a combination of both, in the reality of it.
[0:56:16]
Maybe if I didn't - obviously I didn't have a deep reflection on it. But I mean, it was a sense that, hey, you know, if we're going to have a way to get back to some path of normalcy - I don't think things will ever be back to the way that necessarily they were. But things evolve and all that kind of stuff. But, yeah, I was anxious. I mean, it was, you know, I wanted to kind of be able to do more things.
[0:56:46]
There was some point where we were in Illinois where we didn't have the mask mandate. And that was kind of nice. It was interesting because I was like, you know, you just got used to the mask. Didn't notice it in any way until it was gone and then had to come back. And then when it came back, you're like, I'm not really crazy about wearing this thing. But you do it. And I can understand, again, not everybody wants to or does
[0:57:14]
and that's fine. I do when I'm in a public area simply because I don't know what the people around me are thinking. And, you know, even after you're vaccinated, you're like, well, should I or should I not? But most people weren't at the time because we got away from the mandate. And then when the mandate came back, it was - you know, people don't know whether you're vaccinated or not. So, you just kind of just do what you can to help people.
[0:57:41]
I have no idea what other people are thinking when they're out and about and what they're concerned about and all that kind of stuff. So, you just do what you can.
Amanda: And yeah, what you were saying is that, you know, in May, that's when the CDC started recommending that individuals who were vaccinated, they could leave off the mask. And that was May 13th.
Chris: That’s right. Yeah.
Amanda: Were you guys able to start doing more in-person events?
[0:58:13]
Because then it was June 11th that Illinois went into Phase 5, which was basically reopening indoor restaurants... Things really started feeling very normal.
Chris: They were very normal. I think we still had some sort of size restriction. And we still had the spacing. We did all that. But yeah, no, it was good movement. And, you know, we never stopped having in-person events. We just had to have smaller ones. Or we had to manage the size of visitations and
[0:58:42]
things like that. But yeah, you could have more people at that period. And then at some point, the number restrictions kind of went away. I mean, we'll see where that where that holds. Yeah. But you're still careful. I mean, you still - and we have seen large crowds. But I still think there is a number of people that -- probably from their own health perspective -- are saying, Well, I'm kind
[0:59:14]
of in that group of a higher risk. So, I'm not going to go,” type-thing. And they find other ways to reach out to a family.
Amanda: I had a question and now it just...
Chris: Yeah. I talked too long, I'm sorry.
Amanda: No, no, not at all. Not at all. It was about what you were saying. Oh, wow, that's really bad. It just went away. It was not one that I have on my outline. But yeah, so, did you guys - or now, are there not really restrictions?
[0:59:43]
Are you able then to just kind of, at your own discretion, choose how to do the services and ceremonies?
Chris: Yes. We weigh it. And you can kind of anticipate, through a variety of different ways, what kind of crowd you're having. You just plan for it. You just do what you can. We haven't had any – and I want to - but we've managed really, really well through this period.
[1:00:12]
I’m grateful for that. I don't want to take it for granted. Until things are somehow we’re out of this, you'll always have that level of concern of what if. You just don't want to have anything bad happen.
Amanda: Do you guys still do some streaming with different funerals?
Chris: We do. Yeah. And we'll see how long - I mean, I think that will always be there. Right now, we provide it as an option at no charge, which is a little bit of a burden on us.
[1:00:43]
So, we'll see how that develops.
Amanda: Do you have anyone in your staff who is particularly good at technology who's able to step into that role? Or has it been a learning curve?
Chris: Most of the directors are really good at it. We bought the equipment that made it as simple as it can be. We work with a company that has a technician on their end to manage things as well. So, you have a level of new learner and a level of professional doing it as a combination.
[1:01:15]
Technology makes a lot of things easy today. Years ago, we invested in a program to do it. It was so much work and so much cost, and so much infrastructure and none of that's needed in today's world to that level. You still have to have quality, but it's not like it was in the past. We've got a pretty good group that can do it. I am not in that group. Although, I could learn it if I had to.
[1:01:46]
Amanda: Of course. I remembered my question. It's just funny the way the brain works. But I was going to ask, I think in our first session we discussed that some people had postponed their services. That summer of 2021, did people start to have those services they postponed? Yeah. They did. I was really surprised. One, I was grateful for how our team managed it. Because our
team made great notes and they marked their calendars appropriately to follow up
[1:02:14]
at certain periods with families. I recall certain families saying, “We're not ready yet.” “We're not ready yet, but do contact us.” “We're not ready yet, do contact us.” That type of thing. There was a number who just said, “We're just going to do what we're going to do now, and that's it.” There was others who said, “Well, we'll see how things develop. Please contact us.” And there's others who said, “We're not going to do anything until...” So, when we contacted those people, I was expecting that maybe not a lot of them would actually hold and do something.
[1:02:46]
But most did. So, we had, you know... And I remember a couple in particular that were - one at a church particularly, that was very, very large. It was, if not a year, it was close to a year after the death. But... And... It was meaningful. It had all those elements of healing. And, I thought, “Well, I wonder what it was like during that year of waiting for those people?
[1:03:18]
Was that delayed healing?” You know, what... How… Yeah. That's not an answer I have. I mean, somebody in that world of psychology could answer that better than I could. But there was no doubt that the event had meaning for people and it was worth having even all that period. Under a normal situation, I've always advocated that the time to do something is now. When the death occurs, that's the time to attend to it.
[1:03:48]
Not wait until a more convenient time or something like that. I always ask the question, “When's the most convenient time for death to occur?” Well, never, right? But given the circumstances, I was surprised, relieved, grateful for the way that it did develop and the number of people that did hold and do something. It took a combination of a lot of
[1:04:16]
things for that to occur. But, again, I was proud of the way our team handled that.
Amanda: That's really good to hear. Then, unfortunately, by July 27th is when the Delta variant became a variant of concern and the CDC started recommending masks again for the vaccinated. A lot of people felt like it was
a step back. And then later in August, at the beginning of August, is when Governor Pritzker started
[1:04:47]
mandating masks for everyone again. Were you guys still - what was that like at that moment for you?
Chris: Yeah. Well, I think -- probably like everybody -- it was disappointment, discouragement. “I don't like wearing these,” that type of thing. “Is it necessary?” was certainly a question that you would hear. And
[1:05:18]
I guess, the reality is that there were some deaths that occurred from it. And, maybe the vaccine opportunity helped prevent a larger issue with it. I think what most people just said is, “We're going to do what we got to do.” You know, “We're going to keep going.” I think the positive aspect of things was that there was pretty much consensus --I think, from my perspective --
[1:05:52]
that you can't shut down the world. You got to figure out how to create a level of protection to the best of your ability. You need to find a way to help safeguard those that are most vulnerable. And you got to go out and run the world. And that's where things are at today. That's what most people are dealing
[1:06:22]
with. And it's obviously, in our world, the American world, and maybe the whole world, it's a very politicized situation. Maybe that's inevitable, I don't know. But what you see on the ground, the boots on the ground, is that we got to do what we got to do. And we got to do it in a way that allows people to live their lives and do what's necessary but do it in a way that's appropriate for the times.
[1:06:54]
Amanda: One of my interviewees -- I think -- put it very nicely and it was, “Either die by the pandemic or die by the economy.” What's that balance?
Chris: Well, yeah. Certainly, you definitely heard that. Some people said the cure was worse than the disease, type-thing. You know, I thought the initial response was pretty good.
[1:07:22]
Again, it got political pretty darn quick. But separate and apart from that, nobody really knew what was going on. So, you were making a lot of quick decisions. I mean, I remember standing around the house with my wife and saying, “I don't get it. I mean, how do you close down the world?” I mean, you know? “I don't understand.” But you did what you did and here we are.
[1:07:53]
We’re in 2021 and things have been managed the way they've been managed, and we're operating, we're here. And you just hope that overall that for the emotional health of people - I saw an article in the paper the other day -- yesterday, two days ago maybe -- about which group was affected the most, and it was younger people. Maybe, because of where their stage in life is socially, and the group that's in the dating period
[1:08:25]
and all that kind of stuff and how they were maybe impacted, and all that. Yeah. So, I think everybody's just trying to... The old cost-benefit ratio; what's the cost? What's the benefit? And how are we going to manage that balance? Which in a lot of areas of the world, I think has kind of been thrown out the window, and not in a good way. But I think now there's awareness that you've got to keep the world running, and you've just got to figure out how to do it in a responsible way.
[1:08:59]
Amanda: In August, I've found some articles from a variety of places --I think one was from Florida, there was one from Pennsylvania -- that started talking about this shortage of granite for headstones. And then there was the stencils used for engraving the headstones, there was a shortage of that. Did you guys experience that?
Chris: Yeah. Part of our organization includes the cemetery. And one of the things that we've certainly ran into is that delay which has been a challenge.
[1:09:29]
And our director of the cemetery is very, very good about figuring out how to get things done. And I know that he's done his best to do it. You know, it's just part of it. We've seen it in the casket world and, of course, they've been impacted by the cost of steel and all those shortages and all of that. I think it's like any other business out there.
[1:10:01]
That there are what everybody now knows as the supply chain issues and that those are occurring for a variety of reasons. You just got to manage through it. It’s, again, one of those things that's not fun. You just do it and you work through it the best way you know how. Go forward, someday we'll look back and say, “Wow.”
Amanda: And do you think that - or I guess, are you still experiencing that? Because the articles, a lot
[1:10:35]
of them are from, like, started in August and some even went until December of 2021. So that's still something that's affecting you guys?
Chris: I think it’s still – yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know even this week, I've seen where we're waiting on a particular type of urn. The casket companies announced some cost surcharges. I talked with the cemetery director a week or so ago and
[1:11:03]
he was telling me that this is how delayed we are on certain things.
Amanda: It's just that concept of continuing to move forward to the best of your ability.
Chris: You just do what you can. Yeah. It's frustrating.
Amanda: As we kind of wind down the interview, I would be curious to know, what does a service look like in December of 2021? I mean, what is the balance of how you've changed because of COVID and what do you do that's normal now?
[1:11:36]
Does that make sense? I know it's kind of a weird question.
Chris: I think it probably depends on the individual family and what they're comfortable with. I will tell you from a, maybe it’s personal and professional experience, that there were three standout ceremonies for me as I recall the year. And when I say, “Standout,” that doesn't mean that they were... I'm just more aware of them because I knew
[1:12:08]
the individuals personally. I've shared this with my team quite often this year. Is that, truly, from my professional career, the ceremonies that I experienced with these three individuals were three of the most beautiful of
my whole career that I've ever experienced. In two out of the three situations, I know that the family was like, “What can we do?
[1:12:41]
What should we do? What will we do?” They all ultimately decided to have public visitation, public funeral, and appropriate committal after the ceremony. The events were large and they were in appropriate venues.
[1:13:17]
The events allowed people to gather, connect, reflect, and celebrate. And when I say, “Celebrate,” I'm talking about finding joy in the midst of pain. And in all three of those situations, there were people that were too young, from what our mind tells us is appropriate, right?
[1:13:46]
And you were talking about families that were battling through cancer, through mental illness, and through alcoholism. And each family used the setting of ceremony to do the appropriate goodbye and the appropriate honoring of the individual, but also to raise awareness of these issues and what they really mean. It was so much an illustration of the value of
[1:14:19]
ceremony that, again - and just the events themselves and the people that were included in these. In one of them, it was such a large visitation. I just remember sitting there reflecting and looking at all the people, watching them, observing them. And it was, you know, there wasn't anybody who gathered here - typically when we gather for a visitation,
[1:14:48]
there's a fair amount of people that come that didn't know the person who died. They're there to support one of the family members. Well, in this situation, I think, I honestly felt that everybody that was there knew the individual who died. And they all would have been there. They all would have done anything in the world to help this individual that died. And that's what made the event extra special. But it was beautiful. Your question is, how are we managing like that? Well, you know,
[1:15:19]
you set up chairs if you're not at your regular place of a ceremony. You invite. People come in. People wear their masks. People have had their vaccines, and not everybody we know. We don't have any way to manage
that. But I would say things are - I don't want to say completely normal but they are - there's a semblance of that, for sure. And people who come do what they're comfortable with. Our team, you know, we follow
[1:15:54]
the mandates and we just go forward. What I've asked the team to consider is, on those three events that I described, is, “I want you to imagine for a moment, what would the world would be like if those events hadn't occurred? How much healing would be left undone? How much education would have been left undone?” For those issues that I talked about, cancer, alcoholism, and mental illness, good came
[1:16:27]
out of those situations. And that reflection, well, the gathering, the connecting; we gather with many, connect with a few, right? We reflect in the setting of ceremony and we celebrate and find that joy in the midst of pain through that aspect of ceremony. And none of that would have occurred had we not been able to do those things. So the value, I talked earlier
[1:16:55]
about cost-benefit ratio, the value of what occurred was immeasurable through that period. So that's how we're managing it. We're doing what we can and should be doing. And we're doing it to the appropriate needs of a family. What they are willing and able to do. It does start with them. We offer them the options and then once they make their decisions we're
[1:17:23]
going to honor and implement and invest in their choice. That's really no different than what we've historically done. But again, maybe I reflected on those three ceremonies a little bit more than I would have in the past just because there was the question of what can we do right now. But they were beautiful. They really were. I mean they were incredible events that I'll be forever grateful to have been a part of.
[1:17:55]
Amanda: They really sound like it. Moving into these concluding questions that we have. one thing that I would be interested to know is that if COVID caused you to handle the deceased differently, you know, because of the concern - I was able to find, not really much guidance from the United States government, but actually the Australian government -- which I don't know how much that applies here--
[1:18:25]
but it talked about how being cautious of if air is released from the lungs of people who had COVID and those concerns. Is that something that you guys experienced?
Chris: Yeah. The CDC -- and I'm not going to be able to recall exactly -- but I know the CDC had some initial guidance on it. It was that, from their perspective, that there was not going to be any concern relative to being in the room of a deceased person with COVID.
[1:18:53]
You certainly had to be aware of that, though. I mean, when you move somebody or that type of thing, can air be expelled from the lungs, and so forth? I think that there was probably some aspect of placing masks on deceased individuals while they're being moved, and that kind of thing. Certainly, from a professional perspective, the obligation is always universal precautions. Universal precautions means you treat every individual -- deceased
[1:19:22]
individual -- as if they've had - that there's potential to infect somebody. But you know, I know we had events with deceased individuals from COVID. I think, maybe, if embalming care occurred, that maybe that there was less, maybe, restriction. I don't know if that's the right word - would have been present for those gathering. But if embalming care had
[1:19:55]
not occurred, then maybe… not that it was ever required, because it's not, I mean, it wasn't. But it was that maybe there had been a barrier set up between the individual, just as a precaution, that type of thing. But you know, overall, again, I think we were able to carry on and give people their essentials.
Amanda: Would there be any concern with cremation in that regard? I mean...
Chris: No. Not from my perspective.
[1:20:24]
And I think from a professional perspective and any guidance from the CDC would have been that, again, the intense heat of a crematory is going to take care of any concerns relative to that area. Again, you know, as you're handling the deceased individual… but when, by the time they're at the
crematory, they're going to be in some sort of container. And so, you know, things would be...
[1:20:51]
And those containers are partly for the safety of the professional team that's assisting.
Amanda: That makes a lot of sense. Did your views on the pandemic change over time from the start in the beginning of 2020 to even today, the end of 2021?
Chris: That's an interesting question. So, again, I spoke earlier of the question to my wife.
[1:21:24]
I said, “Well, how do you shut down the world?” I mean, you know, I think my initial thought was, “All right, we don't know a lot, as a world, on what's going on. Obviously, we see that there are deaths occurring.” It seemed to me that the deaths were among the vulnerable with health conditions and things like that. So, my initial thought was, hey, you got to find a way to protect those individuals and you got to let the rest of the world go out and run the world.
[1:21:53]
Right? I probably still feel that same way. Was I against the lockdowns? I can't say I was against them. I was probably in that group of… I guess we're trying to do the best we can. I mean, certainly, the medical people were saying, “You've got to help us buy some time here.” And I would certainly support that.
[1:22:21]
You know, it seemed to me that, again, I mean, I'm not a medical guy, I'm not a science guy so I'm always going to rely on... you know, so my observations were... I tried not to make observations that were without... not without some research, right? So I would try to read different articles, and sometimes the articles would be confusing and you're trying to figure it out. It did seem to me like I think it was a mistake to withhold
[1:22:52]
athletic events from people, from younger people, particularly outdoor events. But again, I'm not the one person responsible for making those decisions, so I tried to give the benefit of the doubt to those who were burdened with those decisions. But as I looked at some teams,
[1:23:20]
maybe the ones that I follow and ones that I didn't follow, it was like, “Well, they are playing sports in some parts of the world. Why aren't we doing that here in Illinois?” Right? And so in the fall of 2020, football teams didn't get to play. They did get to play in the spring of 2021, so they got to make up a little bit, but it wasn't the same. There wasn't a playoff. There wasn't some of that. And I always feel for those players that didn't get to do that.
[1:23:54]
I guess that's their burden.
Amanda: I don't know what this microphone's problem is. I don't think it's you.
Chris: It's probably me. But anyhow, so I think what we're seeing today is that everybody's committed to trying to get people to do what they can. Trying to do it in the best way possible, and hopefully move us through things. You know, I think
[1:24:25]
we're still in somewhat of that we're not sure how this thing's going to completely find a resolution. I think there's definitely some thoughts on that. But I guess we'll leave that up to the professionals to figure that out. And certainly, the feeling as we sit here today is that we never really eradicated the flu. We just kind of developed some flu shots and every
[1:24:55]
year the variant’s a little bit different and you deal with it. Some years are more severe than others and we've kind of accepted that. Yeah. With the flu, we're comfortable with this number of deaths every year. And we're not going to require a mask and things like that. So, will this virus reach that level of, okay, we know COVID's out there, it's going to be a different variant all the time. And we're
[1:25:25]
going to manage it through shots. And that yeah, this number of deaths is acceptable. I don't know if we'll get to that or not. But it was -- I don't know if it was an article or a podcast that I heard talk about that flu thing -- but I thought it was really interesting. It's like, well, it's kind of true, we just kind of accept that, yeah, every year there's going to be this number of people that will die from the flu, right? And so, will that be how we accept --
[1:25:53]
in a free society -- is that what we're going to accept with this? Who knows? I don't know.
Amanda: I've heard talk of the fact that COVID is here to stay. So, where's that line between a pandemic and then an endemic?
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. You're probably right now going to get various opinions on that. So, we'll just do our best to say, “You know what? Let's…” We'll do what we need to do today and we'll hopefully figure out
[1:26:26]
through a common level of acceptance what the best path forward is.
Amanda: We talked about this at the beginning of our first session and it was about, what is the purpose of funeral homes? And we talked about that healing and those very real measures that help with that grief.
[1:26:53]
Has the pandemic helped you to hone in on that in any way? Or has the pandemic played any role in changing your thoughts on this or strengthening them?
Chris: Oh, I would say out of anything, it would have strengthened. It was interesting because the article - most of the articles you saw in 2020 were about how difficult it was for people to transition without the opportunity to truly say goodbye in the way that they wanted to.
[1:27:25]
You've always seen that type of article, but not to the number and level that we saw in last year. A lot of times we would see articles that, you know, like anything, we live in a critical world, so, a lot of the articles you see are going to be critical of funeral service. Oh, you know, it's… You know... You don't need to do X, Y, or Z type-thing.
[1:27:54]
You’re taking advantage of vulnerable people, and all of that. And, you know, that's been around. But the reality that I'm aware of is that throughout the history of mankind, we've always marked events, life events, from birth to religious events to baptisms to weddings to funerals, with ceremony.
[1:28:24]
It's a life transition. And ceremony is something you do when you don't know what to do. So, you create ceremony around it and you find ways to
help people navigate that road that they're going through at that time. So, knowing that the foundation of funeral service is built on that age-old, human-old
[1:28:50]
experience of we mark death with something, is that it is valuable. And I think, organizationally, and as a profession… But particularly, I'm going to speak to our organization is that I think we've done a really good job of adapting -- over the course of my career -- of trying to meet people where they're at
[1:29:21]
and offer them options that work for them from an emotional as well as an economic perspective. So, I think that there's no doubt that the experience of the last year has really strengthened my perspective of the importance of having that. And again, those three events that I was a part of this
[1:29:48]
year was - I mean, that's, I think, part why they stand out so much is that, “Wow what if that hadn't occurred?”
Amanda: Well, that concludes my questions. And I think that's a really good way to conclude the interview with those words. So, thank you so much. Do you have anything that you would like to add before we end?
Chris: No. I think we talked through a lot. Now, you know, probably when I'm home tonight, I'll think, “Oh, I should have said this.” Right?
[1:30:20]
But, no. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have been a part of this. Hopefully, I offered some good perspectives for consideration and observations that will prove to be meaningful.
Amanda: I definitely believe so. Thank you again, Chris.
Chris: Thank you.